Coast and Country in France

I have been writing recently about some of the frustrations of buying property in France - these frustrations are both for the buyer and myself trying to find the right property for someone.

I work with Coast and Country , a very reputable estate agent based on the Cote d’Azur, I am trying to help with their Internet presence and I also offer for sale some nice properties where I live in Languedoc.

People from all other parts of the world dream of living in France and many contact me, plan a trip and ask me to help find a suitable property. I am happy to do this as I meet a lot of nice people and, if they buy a home, I can share part of the commission from an agency. To be able to do this I have to be correctly registered.

I have mentioned in this blog the big problem of finding what properties are available - there is no central listing system and all agents are competing to sell the same properties - the agents are also competing against the owners of the properties, so if they advertise them properly a buyer, using the Internet (Google Maps and Yellow Pages) will easily find the address and make an offer direct to the owner, cutting out the agent and saving an average of 15,000 euro (the average commission on an average property price).

So when a buyer pops into an agents shop or through their website, the agent will not tell them where the house is, often not even which town or village it is in - the agent often insists on accompanying the buyer and usually demands that they sign a “bon de visite”.

This “bon de visite” (my interpretation is “Getting the goods on you for the visit”) is to protect the agent that in the event of the prospective buyer then going direct to the owner and negotiating a purchase, the agent can sue the owner for the commission they would have had.

I find this insulting both to the buyer and to the owner, I never ask for a bon de visite - sure, there are people who would abuse this trust and on an expensive property this can be the price of a new Jaguar or Mercedes (or more) but it makes it impossible for anyone looking for a home to know what is available in any town at any time. The only way is to visit every single agent (there are three times as many agencies as there are bakers shops) and to read every singe classified advert every day (nearly half the properties sold are not sold through estate agents in France) also to search every Internet portal every day (many websites are advertising portals for a number of agents and I have found over 2,000 of these) plus it is necessary to ask every Notaire in the area if they have any properties for sale.

I have a client at the moment who wishes to buy a home in Pezenas - he is very specific about his requirements and one is that it is within 15 minutes walking distance of the town center. In Pezenas I deal with all the agents (currently 27 with offices in a town of less than 15,000 people) take into account agents in other local towns covering Pezenas and the fact that people may move in France on average once in 7 years (the French homeowners move less frequently than this) this implies that there are in any one year a maximum of 400 properties offered for sale (about 15 per annum per agent) - take out the ones sold direct by the owners and on average an agent in Pezenas with an office is basing their business on ten properties to sell each year.

Most agencies list from 200 to 400 properties as owners will sign non-exclusive agreements with as many agents who ask them - the end result is that no agency can fully promote or advertise the property as a buyer will simply go direct to the owner - but a buyer will never know what is available and cannot quickly eliminate properties in the wrong area or with the wrong services to them as they can in most other countries, so a huge amount of their time is lost and someone on a trip from the USA or Australia to find a home is frustrated.

For my client looking in Pezenas I am asking agents I know to please tell me where the property is - many are refusing to do this, implying I will go behind their backs - what I do in fact is to ignore them completely and as the same property is likely to be listed with many other agents, I keep asking until I can either book an appointment to view for my client, or say with certainty it is unsuitable.

The solution needs changes in the way people work - it means a cut in sales commissions from the current 6 to 10 percent to the more (world-wide) normal 1 to 2 percent - it means sellers working with one agent to rely on them to fully promote, advertise, sell and network their property for them - it also means a lot of agents would go out of business and perhaps do something more useful.

Meanwhile, if you have a three bedroom house 15 minutes from the center of Pezenas or Clermont Herault, with a nice outlook, garden (pool preferred) for under 400,000 euro - please let me know.

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If you buy a house in France, the sale must be completed through a Notaire.

I am not sure exaclty how to descibe a Notaire in comparison to the legaol or officail equivalent in otehr countries - not a; lawyer, solicitor, civil-servant or barrister - the Notaire is in fact the biggest tax collector in France and every property transaction will have a fixed tax and non-negotiable fee for a Notaire.

These fees are apid by the buter and are rarely shown in the selling price of a property, so when you have found you dream home tou have to allow another lump of cash to stomp up when you complete the sale.

The amount you will pay depends on the price and the age of the property - under five years and the taxes are signicantly lower.

I found this useful calculator which will show how much you will have to pay the Notaire in fees and taxes on the completion day.

Frais Notaire

The calculator also has provision for the fee which will be added if you are taking our a loan on the property.

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A useful site I have written about before is Batitel - unfortunately they charge a fixed subscription of 90 euro a year for their online service, while this is excellent value if you are a builder, it is pricey for someone wanting to check on building and material prices for building work in France.

If the is a big enough demand I could try to give you a service for specific pricing and estimates - any interest?

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In many countries, including America, the UK and Australia, if I want to buy a house I select a local agent I like and I ask them what properties they can offer in the areas I am interested and at the price I can afford. They check the requirements on a computer and in seconds can show me all the listed properties in those areas and in the price range I ask - not only that they can show me a Google map, satellite picture or possibly a Google drive past of the actual houses.

The estate-agent is confident I will deal with him, although they may be showing many properties listed which are signed to other agents, as the multi-listing-system shares this information throughout a total network and agents (generally) work together.

This open and comprehensive exposure has many advantages, the person selling knows their property is shown to it’s best advantage, photos and maps are freely exposed, prices asked are realistic, an overpriced property will easily be seen as one which compares unfavorably with neighbouring prices and prices will not be set under the fair and realistic market price as this can also be seen quickly by the owner. Agents in these countries earn a sales commission around 2 to 3 percent.

In France, getting information from most agents is like getting blood from a stone - this week, for a client, I have been requesting a very clear specification for a family home which must be within 15 minutes by foot from the center of Pezenas. Two agents I visited for them have point blank refused to tell me even roughly where the properties are - we have to sit in front of them - hear a lecture and then be accompanied on a visit from a prior appointment - seeing five properties a day this way from one agent is very hard and frustrating work. A day later two agents complained that the clients did not go back to them for more “appointments”, I had to tell them that the rubbish they had been showing had discouraged them to the point they did not wish to return to them - had they shown honest photos and told us where the properties were a lot of time would have been saved and they may still have had a chance to sell them a property.

Unlike the USA and UK etc - in France there is no central Multi Listing System - estate agents are concerened that buyers will go behing their backs to other agents - or even worse directly to the owners. In fairness there is some justification - commissions are usually over 6 percent of the selling price so on an average sale in France the buyer and save 15,000 euro on the advertised price - add to this the complication of the owner to have many non-exclusive contracts with many agents often all at different offering prices due to commission variations and an estate agent in France is not encouraged to even give a clue to which village a property is in, let alone the address.

It is all going to change - I am telling agents I can use search engines to find the other agents listing their listed properties and with clues and a compund of photos from these sites, use satellite maps combined with the government plans to get the exact address of all the properties in less time that wasted on one visit draws blank looks of total incomprehension from them.

Soon we can all use photosynth - http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/129 - to find anything from images we input and all agents depending on mystery, smoke and mirrors, they will have to rethink their function.

Menawhile - if you know of a good family home, walking distance from the center of Pezenas, with a pool and under 400,000 euro - please contact me , I have a customer.

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If you are planning to move to France you will be searching lots of estate-agents websites and many of the online portals to get information on property and to find out what is on offer.This article is about finding information about places, prices and problems. How to find and select a property is a complex question and I am preparing another article on this.As with most Internet searching the Big “G” , medium “Y” and smallish “M” are search engines which can reveal millions of pages - I am sharing some of the pages I know and use regularly and which I have refined and used for several years.http://www.patrimoine-de-france.org/ Claims 450,000 items of information and history relating to regions, departments and villages in France - a messy site to use and far from complete - but there are nuggets of information relating to things you may miss elsewhere such as flooding and fires.http://www.notaires.fr/notaires/notaires.nsf/V_TC_PUB/ENGLISH-HOMEPAGE You have to use a Notaire and you may as well understand what they do - their official site has this English option and a lot of information - but sometimes it is hard to find - there is a real-estate “portal” which lists a few (very few) properties for sale not shown anywhere else so it is worth searchinghttp://www.immobilier.notaires.fr/jahia/Jahia/lang/enhttp://www.immoprix.com/ Is linked from the Notaire site and gives a fair indication of property price trends outside of Paris - this used to be an awful site but has tidied up it’s act it seems and does not crash my computer as much now. This is less focused guide than the one available from http://www.pap.fr/ but it claims to only give statistics when it has enough relevant data. Notaire do have access to a restricted database of all sales and their information will be more current and comprehensive - it is always a good idea, once you have determined exactly where you are going to buy a property, to find by recommendation, an intelligent and cooperative Notairehttp://www.paris.notaires.fr/ Gives a lot of information, including property prices, for the Paris region and is one of the better sites (apart from the silly animation)http://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/-Inondations-.html This is an infuriating site - there are many useful pages of information, but the navigation and search boxes keep switching to other less informative sites - also the English pages are worse than useless as they are usually just empty - however, keep on the site and read between the lines and some real nugget of data are shown.http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/ is a site linked back to in the navigation from the ecologie.gouv.fr site - it looks like work in progress and is a typically daft French site of irritating images and pointless pages - but again, drill down and there are some good bits of information

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Two thousand years ago the Romans made careful maps of their Empire to be able to collect taxes from all landowners - so nothing has changed there. In the museum in Beziers there are some old drawings of the plots of land, probably given to retired Roman soldiers to make into farms (and pay taxes) these Plans Cadastrale look very similar to the ones we use today for every property transaction, many of the plots and boubaries are exactly the same as they were in the year dot.

Getting a copy of the Plans Cadastrale of a property used to mean a visit to the local Mairie, waiting for everyone to come out of the pub/cafe/bar/bordello and get back into the office, then to be told their computer/Microfiche reader/printer/pencil/clay-tablet was out of order.

Now you can get these plans online at …
www.cadastre.gouv.fr

I can zoom in on my neighbours or anywhere in France and see exactly what area their plot of land is and where the boundaries are - so with Google maps and http://www.geoportail.fr/ you can get a very clear idea of a property offered for sale.

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Where do you find good people to do work, supervise and how much should they charge.

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Good Evening Tony,

I have just visited your web site and read some of the issues etc. I wonder if you could assist with some advice?

My wife and I have been looking at buying a property in France. We have seen a partially renovated property (New Roof and Septic Tank) and are very intrerested in buying. The work has been carried out by French trades to a very good standard.

The property is in the south of Normandy

I wish to employ an architect/project manager to finish the rest of the renovation using French trades.

What is the best way to select this person?

What are the average rates for renovation work?

Are there any price guides available?

Many Thanks

John

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Hello John,

Thank you for using my sites and for writing to me.

By having work done by registered French craftsmen you will benefit from their full insurance and indemnity - when you buy a property be sure to get the original invoices for any work done in the preceding ten years.

Finding good workers, architects or a “maitre d’ouvrage” is likely to be a very localised thing and best done by personal recommendation - ask at the local Mairie - they will know all registered artizans and are likely to be “cautious” in only recommending people they know. You can also look at local newspapers and local Internet magazines - be sure to only to consider a correctly registered company or person - ask for their “numero Siret” or even their “kbis” which allows you to see any local judgements or problems they have had registered against them.

To find the “going rate for the job” you can buy and access information from this blog post I wrote
http://www.twiku.com/2008/01/12/building-and-construction-costs-in-france/

These are “official” rates - the sort of costing the government will pay - in most cases a local builder will be much more competitive, but it gives you a bench-mark.

I have written about this a few times in my blog including
http://www.twiku.com/2007/09/05/cost-of-renovations-in-france/

Let me know how you get on
Best wishes

Tony

Building in France, Business in France, coast country france, French life, fruk, living in france, Personal, Real Estate

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Long term rentals are controlled by rules and legilation.

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Hi

We have a house in France (South Vendee) that we have owned for 4 years now. My husband has recently changed jobs and we are struggling to get to use the house as much as we usually do and are thinking about renting it out for a couple of years or so.

The last thing we want to do is sell the house as we hope, in the not too distant future, that we can go back to the way we were and be able to make regular visits to stay at our house once again.

We have been thinking about renting it as an option - rather than selling it then having to start looking for a new one all over again in a couple of years! That way the house gets regular use and stays warm in winter and aired in summer and we still have our investment to return to once our circumstances change.

Do you have any ideas or help regarding how we go about this? I understand, from one of our French neighbours, that in France they tend to rent on “long term contracts” for around 2 to 3 years? This would be perfect for us.

Any help, advice or info you can offer us would be appreciated.

Thanks

Alison & Colin

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Hi

You are legally obliged to give a nine year lease with breaks of 3 and 6 years for renewal - the tenant has an automatic right to renew, you can only ask for possession if you wish to sell or use for your own full time occupation -but this can take a long time if the tenant does not agree.

The tenant can give three months notice at any time. It is difficult for you to give notice in the winter or if the tenant has children.

A six month furnished rental is an option, this is not so severe - or vacation rentals are more popular if you wish to use the property yourself in the future. Vacation rentals need good support and local management - you can get information about holiday letting from my website at http://www.allrentalsfrance.com

Let me know how you get on or if you would like to advertise,all my advertising services for vacation owners are free.

Best wishes

Tony

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Hi Tony

Wow - thanks for the quick reply!

Not quite as straight forward as I thought.

Definitely something to think about.

Will get back to you if we need any further help / info.

Once again thanks for the reply

Regards Alison

Business in France, French life, living in france, Personal, Property rentals, Real Estate, Rentals

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Capital gains Tax (CGT) on the sale of a property in France for any house which is not a principal home  starts at 16 percent up to 33 percent for non-EEC residents.

It reduces by 10 percent a year after the fith year of ownership and can be zero after 15 full years of ownership.

The costs of purchase and any major building or alterations can be deducted from the capital gains only if these are done by approved, certified French registered builders against validated and approved invoices.

The Notaire involved in the sale of a proeprty is legally resoponsible for investigating and approving all these bills.

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Dear Sir

My wife and I bought a Longere seven years ago for approx 20,000.euros which required complete renovation.

We proceeded to hire French registered builders and put in new walls,new floors,septic tank new roof and complete grounds.

The total cost for the renovation is approx 200,000 Euros and we are now intending to sell at about 250,000 Euros. Can we offset the renovation costs against any Capital Gains Tax if we are liable for this tax. We are retired and live in the U.K.

Many Thanks

Brian

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Dear Brian

If you have correctly receipted bills from the registered French builders and if this is for major construction and significant alterations (not repairs or decoration), then these bills can be allowed against Capital gains Taxes.

On the figures you give me, with the permitted allowances and costs, you should have very little to pay in CGT - it may be advisable to meet and talk to the Notaire you are considering using for the sale - their advice should be impartial and for this will be free.

Hope this helps

Bonne Chance

Tony

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Dear Tony

Many thanks for your prompt and informative reply, We will as you advise speak with a notaire when we proceed with the sale.

Regards

Brian

Building in France, Business in France, coast country france, French life, fruk, living in france, Personal, Real Estate

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It is a pleasure hearing from regular readers and helping with questions over a period of time, I am glad some of the links and comments from others in the archives of these notes since 1997 have been useful - I just had this mail form a reader who contacted me a year ago about another matter…

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April 2007
Hi Tony
Long time no see, how are you? Question.Very roughly do you have a fig. for the cost per sq. meter for a new house build here in Fance not including land costs? Not self build.I have been unable to find a website that could assist me with this info.

Nice to see you back on line.
Ted

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Hi Ted,

We are all well and happy - hope you are the same.

Building a home on land which has services connected will cost from 1000 to 2500 euro per square meter, depending on the standard of finish - the sky is the limit of course, but for a good home, fully tiled and finished I would cost something at 1500 euro per square meter - this would not include an expensive fitted kitchen or gold plated bathroom fittings, but would be to a high standard.

So a nice villa of 130 square meters would cost 195,000 euro - you can supervise the work yourself and employ contractors direct - this could save up to 25 percent of the costs, but you need to be on site all the time - if you have a trade, masonry, plumbing, tiling, carpentry etc - you could invest your time into a project yourself.

Getting a good team or reliable overseer can be tricky - always take up references and inspect previous works done including talking to their clients.

Hope this helps

Tony

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February 2008
Hi Tony.

Long time since we were in contact remember we lived in Tremolat.Well since then we decided to sell up and go and live in the HauteSavoie. We have initialy rented a place and signed the promise to buy on a nice house.

HOWEVER we have by accident found out that the driveway to the house is commune land and therefore we cant fence it etc etc.We now know that the agent also knew but did not disclose this to us. We have talked to the Mayor and our Notaire.We still wish to purchase regardless, however we would like to know our rights about non disclosure of informatiom.Do you think we should look for some sort of financial retribution? Any words of wisdom?

Hope you and your family are keeping well

Ted and Jeannie

==

Hi Ted,

The seller and their agents are legally obliged to inform you of anything detrimental about a property that they know about or should have known about. If they do not do this the contract can be cancelled by you and you can claim any losses.

It is very likely that this “servitude” would have become clear to the Notaire and explained to you on the final sales acte, before you paid, and this then would be your option to continue.

I am not sure what you mean by “commune” land - it will belong to someone (or the Mairie) and it must be clear as to the rights of way and the extent of responsibility for repairs etc.

If the access to the property is good and clear and there are no problems and if you like the property and consider it good value, then go ahead - perhaps make a reduced offer - only you can decide on this.

Taking any “legal” action is likely to take many years and much money for no conclusive result (in my opinion and experience)

Bonne Chance

Tony

Building in France, Business in France, Discover France, French life, fruk, living in france, Personal, Real Estate

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